To clarify I am not asking for exact references, it being a paper for school, presumably, I am sure they are valid. I was just interested in where he pulled the info from. And don't forget that during aobut 1860 to 1864 the south was an independent country, or so they thought. They had their own government and their government went bankrupt trying to get everything done at once while trying to fight a war.

This covers some on railroads, then there is a link on the page to some of the businessmen driving them. http://us.history.wisc.edu/hist102/lectures/lecture04.html Now I don't know if I can find references but growing up in the south, I was taught we went bankrupt because Lincoln pulled a political whamy that worked. England was providing funds to the south but had already outlawed slavery and taken a strong position against it. The north also didn't have a "cause" to help in public support of which there was not a lot of. So Lincoln put out the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862 with a lot of PR work, making slavery the issue of the war (if you read it, it doesn't outlaw slavery in states that had not joined the confederation). Making slavery the seeming issue put England in a bind in supporting the south which resulted in our ultimate bankruptcy, and therefore, loss of the war.

I'll find sources for you but I first got to say no, no, no. (I'll check myself later) It was the after the civil war that the fed government started sinking mega dollars in railroads - manifest destiny and populate east to west coast. This is during the industrial revolution with all kinds of new products including the telephone that used copper. Minerals including gold, silver and copper were being discovered in the west. We needed transportation means. Before that, local governments and private companies built lines. They usually were short runs, for example - from the port dock to the factory and these were east coast. The second half of the 1800's is known as the Gilded Age (named after Mark Twain's book) because of so much corruption in business and politics. Railroaders were crooks personified - they bribed and controlled politicians, bilked the government, they colluded on pricing setting, they pulled all kinds of things. There was a lot of other corruption as well such as meat packers who colluded. The Sherman Antitrust Act was passed in 1890. Ted Roosevelt (Progressive Party) was the first president to do serious major reforms and address many of the poblems related to the business and political corruption. Lassiz faire had been the government practice prior. The Northern Securities Company - railroad trust including Rockefeller and JP Morgan - was one of first he went after http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Securities_Company Additional regulations that were put on railroads the first part of the century, resulted in strangling the indsutry from growth and modernization which is why in the 60's, the government came back in and tried to rectify the situation.

Another thing to consider about having an open border, with no way to keep track of who crosses it, is that it lets in not only everyone from Mexico, but also everyone who can fly to Mexico, including people who have the intent of doing us harm.

gonzo, Why would they fly to Mexico City? They can fly directly into this country right now and stay. To me, our concern should be over terrorists or potential terrorists which means certain religious fundamentalists. They are already here all over the place and still coming. France's problem right this moment with the rioting is second generation Islamic immigrants. These illegal hispanic people are Catholics - they do not teach hatred of Jews and Christians. This argument is meant to convulate the issue and simply promote fear of hispanics being allowed in. Mexico is our neighbor, a border state. People have moved back and force across that invisible line since this country's inception. Putting a wall up is just bizarre - its like splitting Berlin in half.

Maybe Moogie is reading Tom Clancey. lol I can see a reasons why you worry about terrorists sneaking into the US the same way as the illegals sneak in and I find it plausible. God only knows how many terrorists are in this country through such ways. However I don't worry about it too much for these terrorists can fly right into this country with out alot of problems. They know as well as I that the FBI doesn't have enough manpower to watch them all. Some of these illegals from Mexico and Central America are, or could be, parts of organizations which don't like the US very much. The potential is there for smuggling terrorists to do harm to our country... however with open borders that would mean that these illegals would come across at border crossings because they are not illegal anymore and don't have to pay thousands of dollars for the joy of hiking across 100 miles of desert in 130 degree temps. lol Hey I am not for open borders, but I don't mind lending a hand to the opposition once in a while. lol The fact is most of those coming into this country only want a better life. I won't deny that. They really aren't out to upset the applecart.

btdt and Outlooker, you have made good points. I guess I could say I meant it would remain a means of entry assuming they eventually did something about the obvious other ones. Anyway as far as those from Mexico and points south who cross the border in search of work, not all remain in the southwestern states. I reside in a major metropolitan are in the Southeast where Latin Americans do the majority of the construction, etc. and lots of other work. They number at least in the hundreds of thousands in our metro area, maybe more since they don't always fill out the census forms. I've been one that's thought they should start some kind of a formal guest worker program like has been suggested before, so these folks would have ids (not the fake ones they can buy at one of many stores in my area). Btdt, any idea how many would sign up for such a program, or would they be scared it was part of a plan to round them up? My main concern is issues like their driving w/o insurance, etc.

You are right, Gonzo, they don't stay here in the southwest. The illegals spread unequally throughout the US. I've been told they even went into Alaska and Canada for work. My concern also lies with their driving uninsured vehicles but they also eat up our resources in healthcare and other places. There is a whole mess of problems associated with illegals. They sometimes form into gangs that are troublesome, and to be fair they sometimes did this out of need for the illegals are not always accepted by the legal immigrants.

Good post, btdt. I'd just like to add a thought... As long as our neighbors are starving, they will continue to flock through our borders in a risky attempt at self-preservation. If we really don't want to welcome them (as our own immigrant ancestors were welcomed) it would make sense to invest in the political and economic stability of neighboring countries. Those of you who live in border states see a very different immigration situation than I do in Florida. But the roots are the same - people don't leave their homes unless they have no hope of building a safe or prosperous life for their families. We can't blame them for that, nor should we begrudge them. Our own ancestors came here for the very same reasons. In Florida, most of our immigrants come here legally, and then become illegal years later after their petitions for political asylum are denied. The backlog in the courts means that their cases aren't heard for years, during which time they obtain legal employment, send their children to school, purchase or rent homes, and even open small businesses. During this time they pay taxes, and assimilate into our society. I've seen too many of these people deported, and it's heartbreaking.

That is true, Abby, as long as you have a country as poor and corrupt as Mexico sitting next to a country as rich and progressive as the US.. there will be problems with illegals.. but instead of coddling Mexico and the illegals we should apply pressure on Mexico to progress and grow. One of the reasons for our businesses going to Mexico was to help build their economy, believe it or not.. but it backfired on us for we didn't consider the depth of the corruption and the unwillingness of the Mexican leaders to elevate their people.

"One of the reasons for our businesses going to Mexico was to help build their economy, believe it or not.. but it backfired on us for we didn't consider the depth of the corruption and the unwillingness of the Mexican leaders to elevate their people." ----------------------------------- You are right again Outlooker, the bottom line of the problem is Mexico's economic structure and corruption. That is the problem that needs fixing.

It's not just Mexico. The Caribbean islands, especially Haiti, suffer from corrupt governments and a lack of natural resources. Their people are living in abject poverty and fear of violence and persecution. Coming to the United States is no bed of roses for these people. They obtain the most difficult jobs for the lowest pay, and then struggle through the maze of beurocratic red tape involved in the immigration process. Cubans who are able to make it to American soil are immediately granted rights to permanent residency. But Haitians and other islanders aren't offered the same chance. It's a very sad situation.

Alot of those Central American and some of the South American countries are similar to the Carribean and Haiti. In fact many third world nations are the same. I'm surprised businesses don't flock to places like Africa more. I've talked to some of these people from some of these places. In the 80s the Hondurans who worked earned in one year what I made in one paycheck. There were some Hondurans who earned a lot better money by Honduran standards, they earned in a year what I earned in 2 paychecks. During that time the Honduran Lempira was so bad off that the US made the agreement with the Honduran Government that the exchange rate would be 2 Lempira to 1 US Dollar. This was supposed to stimulate their economy by giving their currency some stability.. however it also gave rise to black marketing. It wasn't all that hard to find people willing to give 3, 4 and even as much as 5 Lempira for a US Dollar. This gave Americans the benefit of being able to stay in hotels cheaper because they were still paying the 60 Lempira (or whatever it was not) a day but instead of costing $30 to that, it cost $15. I was also told the US Dollars bought went to places like El Salvador or Nicaragua to buy weapons. That was probably true.

According to the SignonSanDiego article posted earlier in the thread the pay is around $15/hour, which I don't think is that bad for people with probably little education...however, some of the work described sounds pretty gross... "There are plenty of legal immigrants and people out of work who could fill the slots, the trouble is that they aren't going to work for pennies on the dollar."

I tried to make this point a month ago about NO and the people who wanted to help rebuild. It's just that no one believed me and all they did was say I was wrong and cold hearted. Oh Well!!! Guess I was right. My mom was in the unemployment line (she was laid off right after Katrina for what they called "restructuring" and her and 7 other ppl got replaced by other workers who came from Louisiana)and heard them talking about how the people who lived in NO/Louisiana werent going to rebuild their town how they were trying to get mexicans to come in and rebuild for them because they thought it would be too traumatic for citizens of Louisiana to rebuild. I thought it was wrong. Now I see it happening and people are compalining about imigration. Well what do you expect when no one else wants to do the dirty job? Mexicans do the jobs no one else is willing to do and at a lower wage because this is natural to them. People pay Mexicans les and they dont complain about how they are being treated unfair because of race. Now people complain when Mexicans who mow their lawns,pick up highway trash, reg. trash,builds peoples homes,clean pools, work the most horrid jobs come in to NO/Louisiana and rebuild. Well thats what Mexicans do. If the africans in NO/louisiana wanted to rebuild well they would be there rebuilding, but they are not and it doesnt even suprise me. I am not racist by far but I am mexican and I realize that the same things that happened to balck happened to mexicans. Diference black were sold into slavery by other blacks. Mexicans are a mix of Spainards and raped Indian women offspring who were made and forced by other races to be slaves. Mexicans dont complain they let it go. Blacks hang on to it and feel like something is owed to them forever. Get over it and move on. Life isnt fair and never will be thats why its life!!!!

Really what I think it all boils down to is to be careful of what you say and how you say it. I agree that if these people are willing to do the dirty work for what little they are getting paid, without the benefits of full-time employment, then let them work. However, I do not agree with letting Illegal Immigrants come into this country and letting them work taking away jobs from our hard working citizens. If they want to come here to work then they should Visit their country's closest American Embassy and apply for a Green Card. This card does allow them to cross the border and work. If I am not mistaken it also allows them to take up Temporary residency here in the US until they either get deported or until they undergo the Naturalization Process.

DL, it isn't quite as easy to get a green card as you imply. There are very rigid specifications, and a heirarchy of preferences. Those people who meet the specifications, but fall into lower preference categories wait decades for authorization to come to the United States. America no longer welcomes "the tired, the poor, the huddled masses" as it says on the Statue of Liberty. Preference is offered according to the following: 1st) Family Relations Marriage/Spouse Immediate family members of United States citizens have first preference and can receive "green card" status in unlimited numbers. All other preference categories have quotas. This applys to spouses of U.S. citizens, under 21 year-old unmarried children of U.S. citizens, and parents of U.S. citizens who are over the age of 21. 2nd) Executives, Researchers To qualify for this category, you must be employed by an American company, and your employer must apply on your behalf. This applies to persons of extraordinary ability in arts, sciences, education, business or athletics, as well as outstanding professors and researchers. 3rd) Advanced Degree Workers To qualify for this category, you must be employed by an American company, and your employer must apply on your behalf. This applies to professionals with advanced degrees or of exceptional ability, such as doctors and engineers. 4th) Skilled & Domestic Workers This applies to skilled and unskilled workers who are employed by Americans, and whose employers are willing to sponser their application for green card status. 5th) Religious Workers These persons must be entering the United States to work as a minister or clergy member for a bona fide religious organization as recognized by United States tax exempt status. 6th) Politcal Asylum/Refugees These persons are on the bottom of the preference list. Even qualifying persons wait many years before their cases are heard, because the quotas are filled by people in the above categories. To qualify for political asylum, you must prove that you are unable or unwilling to return to your country of origin because of persecution or a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion. This excludes people who can prove persecution for any other reason. This is a very difficult category through which to obtain green card status.

I might add that those migrant workers who cross the border illegally, and perform the most undesireable jobs in this country, have no hope of obtaining green card status within our current system. Furthermore, many of the things we take for granted are available to us courtesy of undocumented migrant workers. Next time you put dinner on the table, remember that your food prices would be much higher if it weren't for their low wages. Our ancestors had an opportunity to work hard and earn their way to a better life. We all owe our good fortune to America's open immigration policies. But those policies aren't so open any more. We don't even give these people a chance, which I find shameful.

First issue, many come here as criminals. Our crime rate where I live challenges that of New York City. Rapes, crimes against small children, shooting their live in wives. To paint the picture that they came here to work is not the minority, not where I live. They live on welfare, food stamps, free hospitals (e.g. births, no insurance). Criminals flee and drugs are now brought into our county like never before. Trust me, whatever their lifestayle is or was, what is tolerated by them is not what I will tolerate. Send them home, pressure mexico to get their act together. We have more murders per capita now with the hispanic population exceeding our infrastructure. The homes become shambles as they pile in people.

Moogie, how can illegal aliens qualify for welfare or food stamps? I agree with you wholeheartedly that criminal behavior cannot be tolerated. I also agree that the influx of immigrants must be managed so that large groups aren't centralized within an area that doesn't have the infrastructure to absorb them. However, I suspect the people you refer to are **LEGAL** immigrants, since illegals couldn't tax the system the way you are describing.