I will certainly wait until its available for free.  I read a promotional announcement from Ben Stein, and , if it wasn't a joke, he seems to believe evolutionary theory was responsible for the Holocaust.  That's not something I'm paying to watch - reminds me of direct-to-video stuff like American Pie Part 6 (or whatever one they're filming now).

Yeah, I used to regard Ben Stein as a respectably intelligent man, until he went off the deep end with this ID crap.  He probably is quite intelligent in other areas, but he's allowed his religious beliefs to completely trump his rational thinking in this area.  As a result, he's lost most of his intellectual integrity.

One of the things that has fascinated me as an atheist is the fact that even otherwise highly intelligent people can be prone to believing completely irrational things.  For example, one friend of mine who's a grad student in soil biology is not above forwarding chain emails promising good fortune if you forward it to X number of friends.  Many of my other friends engage in various rituals in connection to their religions.  When a person wants to believe something strongly enough, that belief becomes immune from criticism, reasoned analysis, demands for supporting evidence, logical consistency, etc.  Religion, politics, superstition, pseudoscience, and the supernatural are all hotbeds of such beliefs.

Isn't it time we started really teaching critical thinking in schools?

I know plenty of intelligent people that are religious.  However, they typically agree that belief in god(s) is a matter of faith.  Not once do they tell me that they can prove their god(s) exist or that I am a fool for not believing in their god(s).  They explain that based on some "personal experience" with their god(s), they have accepted it on faith.  I am dubious of their "personal experiences", but I won't pre-judge them as I haven't had one.

Haven't seen it myself, and probably won't.  Can't say I've heard a single good thing about it, though I've heard quite a few bad things.  From what I've read & heard, the movie's an ID propaganda piece plain & simple which, like the rest of the ID movement, is chock full of factual errors & deceptions.  (Note:  the term some people use for this is "lying.")  Of course, scientists are all Darwin-worshipping cultists, evolution is just another belief system, and Darwin was responsible for the Holocaust.  (Yes, the movie actually tries to link Darwin with Hitler!)

You critique the film without having seen it or even intending to see it and then advocate really teaching critical thinking in schools?  You buy into what someone else says about the film, again not having seen it yourself, and then make accusations about the producers lying.  Your post is what is chock full of error & deception.  The film does not say Darwin was responsible for the Holocaust, and you'd know that if you had watched the film.  The point made by the film is that the philosophical/ethical ramifications of evolutionary theory was Hitler's rationale for the Holocaust.

The film does not say Darwin was responsible for the Holocaust, and you'd know that if you had watched the film.  The point made by the film is that the philosophical/ethical ramifications of evolutionary theory was Hitler's rationale for the Holocaust.
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The film does not explicitly say that Darwin caused the Holocaust, true.  However, splicing scenes of Nazi Germany with scenes of Darwin and scenes of biologists talking certainly LEADS one to think that Darwin caused the Holocaust.  Gee, if they wanted to send a different message, I guess they would have edited the movie differently.
 
As to your last sentence.  Absolute falsehood.  Hitler was a Christian who believed he was following through on Martin Luther's cause of exterminating the Jews.   Need evidence for this?  Read Mein Kampf. He specifically spells it out in his own writings. No mention of Darwin, but explicit mention of God, Jesus, and Luther.
 
And before he found the "final solution" he deported the Jews (which is why killing them was the final solution, it was much cheaper and faster).
 
I guess facts and truth are something that you have a problem with as well.

PP, I said the film's point was not that Darwin was responsible for the Holocaust, but that it was the implications of evolutionary theory that led Hitler to it.  I made no claim as to what was the actual impetus for Hitler to do what he did (although I do disagree with your position).  I was clarifying what the film indicated.  Got it?

I was clarifying what the film indicated.  Got it?
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The film clearly intends to conflate the two positions the mind of the watcher, even though the film does not say it.
 
Very careful and clever editing to produce the perception of, even if they don't say it outright.
 
It allows them to deny they make the claim while at the same time produce that thought.
 
Interesting how the "Christian" perspective allows one to tell a mistruth while claiming to never lie.

I guess facts and truth are something that you have a problem with as well.

 

Challenge the film all you want.  I don't care.  I don't necessarily agree with it's every point. 

 

Your low blow responses to things I didn't even argue have reminded me why I took a vacation from discussions with you.

Your low blow responses to things I didn't even argue have reminded me why I took a vacation from discussions with you.
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Interesting.
 
You consider pointing a Christian group's hypocricy and lying as a low blow, but you don't consider the act of lying that these people do as a low blow.
 
The lies that the Expelled producers told in order to get interviews are well documented by the individuals they lied to.  The theft of MIT's intellectual property and use of said property in the early showings of the movie are well documented. 
 
The mis-information and disinformation that the producers and writers of Expelled have actively created is well documented.  Check out the Expelled Exposed site from the National Center for Science Education if you want real information instead of made up facts and lies.
 
 
 

You consider pointing out these facts as a low blow, but you are not willing to denounce the liars with the same amount of disgust you reserve for me.
 
Interesting.

Forget it.  You are failing to grasp the whole point of my post.  Let's just move on.  Have a good evening.

Forget it.  You are failing to grasp the whole point of my post.  Let's just move on.  Have a good evening.
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Packfan,
  Sorry that I misunderstood you so completely.  Let's examine what you  wrote so that  I can see where I went wrong. Please feel free (and I encorouge you to) correct me where I made a mistake.

In post 10 you said in reply to an old post of Dreamer's, "The film does not say Darwin was responsible for the Holocaust, and you'd know that if you had watched the film.  The point made by the film is that the philosophical/ethical ramifications of evolutionary theory was Hitler's rationale for the Holocaust."
 
So in that post you said you didn't necessarily agree with the movie, but you did state that the film argued that Evolution was Hitler's rationale for the Holocaust.  
 
I challenged this because it is a patently false statement.  The fact Hitler was rabidly insane and the fact that he twisted Christianity into some wierd false religion was the rationale for the Holocaust.  This can be seen from his own writings.

"To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner."

[Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 8]

"Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 171]

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

I made no claim as to what was the actual impetus for Hitler to do what he did (although I do disagree with your position).
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Then in post 12 you said this above.
 
So how am I to take the fact that you disagree with my position?  Here you are defending a movie created on a known lie (as evidence I submit the Wedge Document from the the Discovery Institute that specifically says to lie about evolution) and created through lies and theft (well documented).
 
You disagree that Hitler was rabidly insane?  You disagree that he was a Christian?  You disagree that he warped and twisted his insanity and his reading of the incredibly anti-Semitic writings of Martin Luther into the Holocaust?
 
What exactly do you disagree with?
 
My position is that the movie Expelled is a piece of filth, built on lies (well documented lies in fact), misinformation, half-truths, and falsehoods.  My position that the editing of the movie that juxtaposes Nazi images with images of scientists and Darwin was purposefully done to plant the image in people's minds that Evolution ==  Nazism.
 
 
 
 
And then I said, "Interesting how the "Christian" perspective allows one to tell a mistruth while claiming to never lie."  Notice the quotes around the word Christian?  Notice that I did not say Christians do this but I said, "Christians" do this?
 
Do you really associate yourself with the radical extremists who think that a lie in the name of Jesus is acceptable?
 
I hope not.  I really do.

You critique the film without having seen it or even intending to see it and then advocate really teaching critical thinking in schools?

Yes, that's right.  Why?  Because actually seeing the film for myself is not the only way of learning about the film.  Your rebuttal is the logical equivalent of saying, "Well if nobody was around to see the dinosaurs, then how do we know they're 65 million years old instead of just 6,000 years old?"  No, I have not seen the film myself.  I have, however, made use of others' observations.  I suppose that means I can't really believe in the big bang since I have not personally made any observations of the microwave background radiation for myself.

You buy into what someone else says about the film, again not having seen it yourself, and then make accusations about the producers lying.  Your post is what is chock full of error & deception.

Hmmm, well let's see, it's just the producers' word against that of the Evil Evolutionists™, right?  Just a 50/50 proposition, like creationism vs. evolution, right?  Except, as is the case in both situations, one side has supporting evidence and the other has nada.  In this case, those who made the Expelled movie and those who advocate creationism & ID have a well-established and well-proven track record of LYING, while those who advocate the scientific viewpoint have a great track record of intellectual integrity.

The associate producer of Expelled decided to drop in on the editorial board of Scientific American and screen the movie for them, then to answer questions and challenges afterward.  I very highly recommend that everyone reading this listen here to the complete, unedited Q&A session between the Expelled associate producer and the SciAm editorial board.  (It's in 2 parts, a bit over 1 hour long in total.)  To sum it up, the SciAm folks demonstrate clearly and beyond a doubt that the movie has many, many factual errors, inconsistencies, documented deceptions, and key omissions which can only be summed up as, well, lying.

The film does not say Darwin was responsible for the Holocaust, and you'd know that if you had watched the film.  The point made by the film is that the philosophical/ethical ramifications of evolutionary theory was Hitler's rationale for the Holocaust.

I think physicsisphun pretty well summed this up.  There was quite clearly every intent to equate evolution--or Darwinism, as creationists are fond of referring to it as--with the Holocaust.  (Never mind that the Holocaust was a prime example of unnatural selection.)  Their inclusion of it in the movie could only be for that purpose.  This is another point included in the Mark Mathis Q&A I linked to above, and well-explained there.

Oh, and if the movie states that it was "the philosophical/ethical ramifications of evolutionary theory was Hitler's rationale for the Holocaust," and evolution = Darwinism, then yeah, they're saying Darwin, or at least his idea, was responsible for the Holocaust.

The point made by the film is that the philosophical/ethical ramifications of evolutionary theory was Hitler's rationale for the Holocaust.

 

Which is demonstrably false and a very low blow. I believe it is an attempt to generate hatred (yes its a strong word, but Hitler was an incredibly despicable man) by making a false association.

 

There are no particular ethical ramifications of evolutionary theory. Most scientists are motivated by wanting to help others and many are very strong advocates of human rights.

 

Hitler's rationale was hatred and prejudice. Hatred and prejudice are bad, and are not the result of evolutionary theory, but have been around much much longer. Some church folk have contributed more hatred and prejudice in the world; some work against it.

 

I haven't seen the movie either but know that this premise is wrong. I would actually love to see it if I could do so without paying to do so, but I have no intention of making these hate-filled lie peddlers any richer so they can peddle more lies and inflame more hate.

I guess I should say many scientists want to help others, naturally curiosity about how things work is also a huge factor but I was certainly motivated in large part by wanting to help others and still am, so for me both factors played a huge role

Sorry, meant wolfpac...don't know how I got that messed up :)