The question is not about the "opposition wishing for America to fail in Iraq", the entire issue is about the reality that it's impossible to keep occupying Iraq when the U.S is the fundamental element that continues to drive the insurgency in the first place, and the main reason why that there is absolutely no political improvement on any level because whoever "holds power" in the Green Zone knows that if the U.S leaves, they lose whatever power they have due to the fact they are not the real leaders of Iraq, and they have no legitimacy in the eyes of all the Iraqis.

And they don't have a voice under the current "Iraqi leadership". What's your point ???

you mean 4 million iraqis voting to elect their gov. means nothing? Hmmmmm

You posted: "   We'll wait and see.  I'm not sure why the opposition in America is so bent on our failure.  They should probably put on a cheerleader uniform for the terrorists.    "

 

The failure occurred the day the Bush administration took office and the Clinton transition team was telling them, Al Qida is an existential threat and the Bush adminitration was chanting "IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ".

 

The failure was etched permanently into stone on 9/12 when everyone was asking "what are we going to do about Al Qida" and the Bush administration was chanting "IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ".

 

but Bush apologists like you, rather than admit that Bush administration has deterimedly failed in every single thing they have tried to do, try to fabircate the belief that anyone who points out that emperor is buck naked is supporting terrorism.

Right,

 

The entire "rationale" to justify the war collapsed after no WMD nor any active program were found as soon as Baghdad fell in 2003, so the administration had to find another pretext to justify the occupation of Iraq. So it went with the "democracy" card, and exactly what did Iraqis get in return ??? a dysfunctional and corrupt government that is unable to provide any type of security and for basic necessity needs not to mention that Washington is still calling the shots. Is that the indication of a free and sovereign state when it's still heavily dependent on the occupying power for just about everything ??

bad reply, you do not win $64,000...

"bad reply, you do not win $64,000..."

 

Really ???? Then you explain to me exactly what Washington has achieved after four years of occupation when the death toll is still rising among Iraqi civilians and US troops, and the fact that whatever leadership behind the walls of the Green Zone is completely ineffective on every issue.

 

Because it's a fact that you guys have absolutely no "argument" to justify this entire mess, and why the US should stay much longer. And if you repeat  the same "rationales" that had been said about another war by "leaving Vietnam = the Viet Cong will follow is home", I will have made my point.

I think that they went by the philosophical approach of going after where they thought they would find the most terrorists and they seem to think that they found it in Iraq and Afghanistan but also think that they need to hit Iran because of the new recent allegations that they have been aiding terrorists much like in Iraq and Afghanistan like I have mentioned their involvement in anti-american efforts.

"new recent allegations that they have been aiding terrorists much like in Iraq and Afghanistan like I have mentioned their involvement in anti-american efforts. "

 

What else is new ?? The Bush administration is making all types of accusations against Iran regarding the funneling of weapons to the Taliban in Afghanistan and Iraqi insurgents and militias with absolutely no hard proof to back them up. All you have is a collection of weapons known to be EFPs, but no evidence that they are being shipped directly from Tehran to either sides of the Iranian borders. You will notice that not even Gordon Brown is going along that rhetoric anymore.

 

Again, it's a desperate attempt to blame others for Bush's utter failures in Iraq.

"  Uh, if I remember right they never had a voice under Saddam and 4 million of them voted for democracy when they did get the chance to speak.  "

 

So under Saddam, if they spoke out against him they would recieve a bullet to the head. With Democracy , just going about their daily lives enjoying their freedom they are more likely to get blown up or shot because of their religious beliefs, not to mention becoming "collateral damage" for others beliefs.

 

No wonder they are a bunch of happy campers.

 

 

 

 

well, it is thier country now and 4 mill spoke. If the vestiges of Saddams regime wants to blow folks up and religious militias strike back in revenge and as payuback for 30 years of suppression, I guess that is what one would expect after getting rid of that thug Saddam. Still, that does not mean they do not deserve a chance even if they have not had experience with democracy for 30 or so years.

Even so, you are blaming the wrong folks. The ones who blow up markets and lines of old folks waiting for a bus should be your targets. Naw, GWB is a better one because he had the gall to act, unlike all those Euro countries taking oil for food money, those brave souls who sat back and watched Bosnia and Rwanda turn in to blood baths, etc. Yeah, that is the right attitude.

You folks remind me of Chamberlain!

" You folks remind me of Chamberlain! "

 

I wish you folks would remind me of FDR, Ike, Patton, Macarthur, James Doolittle, Chesty Puller, Omar Bradley, Anthony McAuliffe, Chester Nimitz and many others.

 

At least you wouldn't have to bring up the Chamberlain card again.

 

BTW, when did holding a Commander responsible for his actions become blaming?

never has been wrong. You are just blaming the wrong commander.

" never has been wrong. You are just blaming the wrong commander. "

 

Not any inpsring words along the lines of the people I refered to but I may disagree with the so called "wrong" part.

 

bring 'em on, Iraq is part of a war on terror. It's a country that trains terrorists ..... Saddam Hussein and his weapons are a direct threat to this country, Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa for a reconstituted nuclear weapons program, Iraq was trying to import aluinum tubes to develop nuclear weapons, Iraq still had vast stocks of chemical and biological weapons from the first Gulf War, Liberating Iraq will be a cakewalk, Iraqi oil revenues would pay all the costs of reconstructing the country, Iraq can really finance it's own reconstruction, They're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency, Jessic Lynch, Pat Tillman, mobile weapons labs, I think it will go relatively quickly,... weeks rather and months, a turning point will come .... weeks rather than months, we've reached another great turning point, a turning point will come two week from today, tomorrow the world will witness a turning point in the history of Iraq, on Jan 30th in Iraq the world witnessed .... a major turning point, 2005 will be recorded as a turing point in the history of Iraq, we have now reached a turning point in the struggle between freedom and terroor, well the Office of Management and Budget, has come up with with a number that something under $50 billion for the cost, and how much would the U.S. burden, and how much would be other countires, is an open question.

 

Yup he's hit the nail on the head straight and true every time and there's plenty more of getting it right and dealing with us straight up.

 

I stand my my reply even more so, If there were any people in charge now that sounded anything close to the people that led us though WWII you and I would not even be having this discussion in the first place. I may have thought James Doolittle was a total nut job for thinking he could launch land based bombers from the deck of a Navy Carrier but at least he put his money where his mouth was. I'm looking for commanders ready to do the same today and all it get is a load of malarkey and whines about why it's sooooo hard.

 

I am in no way saying our Armed Forces are anything less than the finest in the world and resemble my next comment but you entire concept is somewhat like watching a really bad football team (i.e. Houston Texans) and be told the reason they don't or can't win games is because the fans don't want them to win.

a very complicated situation not exactly made easier by the wonderful folks Saddam groomed and the Shiite militias on a course of revenge. yet, Iraqis deserve better and we are now there. Pulling out is not the option I would go for. Many folks are correct in asking that Iraqi security forces get the chance to come fully on-line, and in many ways, that is happening. When Iraqis are shown we can keep our promises after getting the bad guys out of an area, they can pull together to keep it that way. But we took the lid off of a pressure cooker that had been on high for 30 years and all of that anger and revenge gets in the way of rebuilding a fair nation.
Saddam was a thug who did his people wrong for far too long and who enjoyed playing chicken with us far too often. Yet, when the Iraqis had a chance, they voted despite threats implied and real. Even so, pulling a democracy out of this miasma never really promised to be easy or cheap, but it can work.

BTW, i met Doolittle when I was a kid.....brilliant guy.

" BTW, i met Doolittle when I was a kid.....brilliant guy. "

 

Wouldn't agrue that, only thing I might add is the word brilliant may be a bit of on understatement.

 

I well understand it's a complicated matter in Iraq. To me the military man that knew what would happen was Colin Powell. Beffore the invasion he made it well known to Bush, Cheney & Rumsfld the concept of "you break it you fix it". For being such a smart guy he was sent to the wayside because others wanted war and did'nt want to hear any of the line of bull.

 

Now we find out Colin Powell knew exactly what he was saying and low and behold we never had any real plan after the fall of Saddam.

 

Today it's just a clear as was the day after Saddam was taken out of power. This will not work unless the Iraqi people get their dog into the hunt no ifs, ands or buts. I have no idea what it's going to take to make them step up to the plate to get on board with security. It seems coddling, wanting and wishing are not working to well. I've yet to see frim boots being planted up a lot of peoples rear end to get their attetion. To me the guy with the biggest boot to start the firm planting is Bush. It also seems to me he won't start planting his boot in someones elses rear unless we plant ours into his rear end.

 

If you can give me an better, safer and faster alternative I'm all ears.