I think agnosticism is the most honest position to take, admitting you don't know all there is to know.

As an atheist, I can't go through the week lying, cheating and stealing because the guilt would become intolerable, religious people on the other hand can just go to their weekly houses of worship and kneel, cry, pray for forgiveness and pay a monetary fee so that they can feel 'cleansed' again,
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Well not all religious people. Religious people can choose not to sin as well except for those who insist we can't because Jesus said we are all sinners so we have to fulfill that .  Guilt and forgiveness? Even atheists have to forgive themselves or they would just say, what the heck, I'm bad and nothing will change that. Excuses can be found anywhere.

Fast food is so much more fun than nuclear weaponry.

Fast food is so much more fun than nuclear weaponry.

 

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But no less deadly.  I am serious.

Funny how Nel accuses me of having no respect for Muslims, just because I believe Islam is a false religion.  But when folks on this mesage board refer to people like me as "whackadoodles" she is strangely silent.
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I think it is an oxymoron to say you can respect Muslims while believing their religion is a false one. (That would make them ignorant and stupid.) As far as the whackadoodles, you are late to this board and I have been debating this particular poster's problem with those who don't believe as he does much as I have been posting to you when you are closed minded. There are closed -minded people who are religious and there are closed minded atheists.

Do you think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is below average intelligence because of the "particularly narrow" view he holds of his apocalyptic version of Islam?  He was a top notch student and has an advanced degree in engineering.
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But he is also a politician trying to keep hold of his power.

Christians and other people of faith pay taxes too, and have as much right to push for the kind of government they want as anyone else.

 

That's what democracy is all about.  You want to tell us all to stay home and let the atheists run the country. 

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Just stay within the Constitution. Remember there is no religious tests for those who run for President.

But no less deadly.  I am serious.
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 Life is deadly. At least with food we get to choose.

I can see you're one of those who gets his jollies by ridiculing those who believe in something higher than themselves. [Post #11]

 

That would only be true if there is actually something behind those beliefs. Which seems to be the crucial point in question. And, more specifically, Dan in particular seems to believe in something apparently higher than himself which might reasonably be characterized as “Truth”.

 

Sorry, I just don't have enough faith to believe in atheism.

 

Believing in the non-existence of something is, I think, a somewhat problematic aspect of atheism. But I would say that there is far more evidence for the non-existence of, at least, the anthropomorphic Abrahamic gods than there is evidence for the existence of them. The “metaphorical and panentheistic god of the physicists” is, I think, a horse of an entirely different colour.

 

Funny how Nel accuses me of having no respect for Muslims, just because I believe Islam is a false religion. 

 

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that “Islam is a false religion”? Maybe because there is no evidence to justify the claims of Muslims? Presumably you, and probably even Dan, would “believe” it was true if the Quran and the words of Allah had been inscribed in an indestructible material.

 

But when folks on this message board refer to people like me as "whackadoodles" she is strangely silent.

 

Yes, people do tend to be a little inconsistent in their judgements – part of the “in-group morality; out-group hostility” problem. But I wonder whether or not you would characterize Muslims that way. And how about all of those claiming to be Jesus or the Jewish Messiah or the Muslim Mahdi? And likewise with Harold Camping and all those following Heaven’s Gate? “Whackadoodles”?

 

I guess Christians really are fair game.  Always have been.

 

You might want to consider that that is something that Christians have largely brought upon themselves. As Thomas Jefferson said:

 

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.

 

While there might be some justification for, as I suggested, the “metaphorical and panentheistic god of the physicists” since it might have some relevance to the profound question of consciousness, when people make all sorts of, well, ridiculous claims with not a shred of evidence to back them up one shouldn’t be terribly surprised, or offended, if they are ridiculed. Wouldn’t you think it rather ridiculous if the devotees of the “Flying Spaghetti Monster” [peace be upon his name] communed with Him/Her/It by sharing plates of spaghetti?

But I would say that there is far more evidence for the non-existence of, at least, the anthropomorphic Abrahamic gods than there is evidence for the existence of them.
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Ah, here is the thing.... you specify and anthropomorphic god but if anyone believes in the possibility of a higher power that is not that but could fit any of thousands of descriptions, I wouldn't call them atheists but agnostics or believers ofa different kind. I do NOT believe in an anthropomorphic God but I choose to believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ (real or not) and live by them. So atheist? I know you are but what am I? (Sorry couldn't resist my childish side.) I had a miraculous experience while praying to the sun. (Or maybe it was that wonderful pain doctor I had been to just before.)

hile there might be some justification for, as I suggested, the “metaphorical and panentheistic god of the physicists” since it might have some relevance to the profound question of consciousness,
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Okay, there you go but would that be atheism?

you specify an anthropomorphic god but if anyone believes in the possibility of a higher power that is not that but could fit any of thousands of descriptions, I wouldn't call them atheists but agnostics or believers of a different kind. [Post #30]

 

I think we all believe things. It is a largely a question, I think, how much evidence there is to justify them. Someone said that we are all entitled to our own opinions, but not to our own facts. Holding to the former in the face of a great many of the latter tends to justify, in my book anyway, the characterization of “wackadoodle”.

 

I do NOT believe in an anthropomorphic God but I choose to believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ (real or not) and live by them.

 

There is certainly some useful, if not profound, psychology in those teachings. But there is also a fair amount of highly questionable “material” as well. The importance of separating the wheat from the chaff.

 

I had a miraculous experience while praying to the sun. (Or maybe it was that wonderful pain doctor I had been to just before.)

 

Or maybe it was the medication he/she prescribed? There are more than a few intriguing if not problematic similarities between religious and drug-induced “revelations”:

 

In Poisons Sacres, Ivresses Divines [Sacred Poisons; Divine Intoxications] Philippe de Felice has written at length and with a wealth of documentation on the immemorial connection between religion and the taking of drugs. Here, in summary or in direct quotation are his conclusions. The employment for religious purposes of toxic substances is ‘extraordinarily widespread... The practices studied in this volume can be observed in every region of the earth, among primitives no less than among those who have reached a high pitch of civilization. We are therefore dealing not with exceptional facts, which might justifiably be overlooked, but with a general and, in the widest sense of the word, a human phenomenon, the kind of phenomenon which cannot be disregarded by anyone who is trying to discover what religion is, and what are the deep needs which it must satisfy.’  [The Doors of Perception; Aldous Huxley; pgs 54,55]

 

So atheist? I know you are but what am I?

 

I periodically wonder about the latter as you seem to seriously waffle at times. Although I wonder about the former myself. But I can’t say that I would self-identify as an atheist. Maybe a “fence sitting, tea (strong) drinking agnostic”. Although I definitely have some sympathies for ignosticism and panentheism. But I think the point is that one can entertain ideas without necessarily inviting them in to take up house-keeping with oneself – the importance of keeping at least a somewhat open mind.

I think it is an oxymoron to say you can respect Muslims while believing their religion is a false one. (That would make them ignorant and stupid.)

 

Kinda like hate the sin but love the sinner. However, I think there is still a distinction to be made in not sharing in someone's beliefs and yet not thinking they are entirely stupid or ignorant. I find all religion to be false, yet I would never deny the intelligence of believers. It is just the weird thing about belief, for example I have a very intelligent friend that just doesn't believe we landed on the moon. Doesn't believe we had the capability to do it. He isn't crazy, doesn't wear a tinfoil hat and otherwise leads a normal life, he just doesn't believe something that is generally accepted as true. And I don't think his belief makes him stupid or really even ignorant because he knows the evidence out there he just doesn't accept it. I look at religious belief the same way. For me these are otherwise very normal and intelligent people, that have this particular belief. For the life of me, I don't know why they still hold it, but it isn't for me to decide or figure out. Doesn't make them stupid or crazy.

. For the life of me, I don't know why they still hold it, but it isn't for me to decide or figure out. Doesn't make them stupid or crazy.
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Different experiences. But i always leave room for some doubt. As for my miracle, it was the doctor without whom the medicine and the technique of injecting it into my spine which he is quite excellent at, changed my life...so far.

I think it is an oxymoron to say you can respect Muslims while believing their religion is a false one.

 

**************

 

So the only way I can show them "respect" is to believe what they believe.

But he is also a politician trying to keep hold of his power.

 

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That doesn't make him unintelligent.

That's what democracy is all about.  You want to tell us all to stay home and let the atheists run the country. [Post #17] 

 

Don’t think so. Looks to me more like a reasonable insistence that you leave your religious beliefs at home – at least if you want to bring them into the institutions and laws of government. All very well to use your beliefs to guide your own actions – a very serious problem if you try to insist that other people do likewise, and to create laws that oblige others to act as if your beliefs were true.

Life is deadly. At least with food we get to choose.

 

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As long as we can break our food addictions.

 

I have come a long way towards that  goal, and have lost at least 15 pounds since December. That puts me about one-third of the way to my ideal weight.

Don’t think so. Looks to me more like a reasonable insistence that you leave your religious beliefs at home – at least if you want to bring them into the institutions and laws of government.

 

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No one, not even atheists, leave their beliefs at home. 

No one, not even atheists, leave their beliefs at home. 

 

You know what I mean. Theists trying to create laws that are based on the supposed existence of some deity will land them in some very hot water.