Gman, what really is behind all this is the thinking that only Christians because of their beliefs can be moral and righteous................. That's a real simple answer. One has to have someone or something bigger than ourselves to help us know what is righteous and what is moral. You will not find it within yourself. If one claims to be able to find something with oneself then one is saying I am God. Therefore I know what is moral and I know what is righteous. Righteous means "acting or being in accordance with what is just, honorable, and free from guilt or wrong (c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved "How many times have you or Packfan asked us not to judge Christianity by it's followers? You appologize for them." It's because at time their presnetation is a detrement to the cause. Presenting a message to people,that doesn't get people to think about who they are, what they are, or in a manner that is forceful doesn't get positive results. It's offensive to the listener or reader. "I am very proud of the way I act and I am very proud of the way I am guided by the wonderful spirit that resides in me! I couldn't be more greatful for it!........" A righteous person has no reason to be proud. A righteous person is a person right before God and righteousness isn't obtained by what we do but what has been done for us and believing in it and accepting it. If you're proud of the goals you have acheived then your goals were set to low.

One has to have someone or something bigger than ourselves to help us know what is righteous and what is moral. You will not find it within yourself. If one claims to be able to find something with oneself then one is saying I am God. Therefore I know what is moral and I know what is righteous. Righteous means "acting or being in accordance with what is just, honorable, and free from guilt or wrong ------------- No one is perfect, but I think we can find righteousness within ourselves.

One has to have someone or something bigger than ourselves to help us know what is righteous and what is moral. You will not find it within yourself. If one claims to be able to find something with oneself then one is saying I am God. Therefore I know what is moral and I know what is righteous. Stop measuring my faith with your yardstick. And Spiritchild's too.

If you're proud of the goals you have acheived then your goals were set to low. That seems rather judgemental and arrogant.

Like I tried to say that was then, and I really believe there has been an evolutionary process that has helped the "righteous" realize that their methodology was not effective I'm not talking about the "righteous" or the "saved" or the "born again". I'm talking about the status quo Christians and the paradigm of "dominion over the Earth" that became common thought throughout the industrial revolution. As for "that was then" well, there's still quite a mess to be cleaned up, so I don't think we can afford to let bygones be bygones. So here is one of the questions that I have regarding the Pagan/Wiccan faith. What are it's goals? How does it help you to obtain those goals? Can you point to one set of "goals" that is true for all Christians? There are lots of individuals and groups who each have their own goals. Paganism/Wicca does not have some "mission" to "save" the world. Most goals concern inner growth. Overall, I think the goals would be to spread an awareness of human's relationship with nature.

Can you point to one set of "goals" that is true for all Christians?............... No I can't because I can't speak for all Christians. But I know what the Bible says our goals should be. Love God with every fiber of our being and to love they neighbor as our self. In order to love God, one must know God in a personal way. I'll stop there for now. "Most goals concern inner growth."................ Excellent goal. Now how does a pagan/wiccan begin the process? If you're answer says look within, the answer this, What do you expect to find? "I think the goals would be to spread an awareness of human's relationship with nature." Why do you think that goal is important? Why nature?

No I can't because I can't speak for all Christians. But I know what the Bible says our goals should be. Love God with every fiber of our being and to love they neighbor as our self. In order to love God, one must know God in a personal way. I'll stop there for now. Lacking a bible, we can only speak for ourselves. Therefore, I can't really speak for anyone else, and I would never presume to speak for all of us. Excellent goal. Now how does a pagan/wiccan begin the process? If you're answer says look within, the answer this, What do you expect to find? The answer definitely says "look within". In fact the Charge of the Goddess says "if that which you seek, you find not first within yourself, you will never find it without". What that means, and what we expect to find, is the part of ourselves that is transcendent and divine. The God/dess that is within all of us. When you find it within, you find it mirrored outside. But one also learns where to look inside by looking at the cycles of nature...birth, death and rebirth, light and dark, etc. This is the big difference between us and you guys. We don't think we are sinful, lowly being who live divorced from god and must seek him. We believe the divine is within us, and inherent in the universe. The body is solidified light, and we are made of the same stuff as the stars. I think the goals would be to spread an awareness of human's relationship with nature." Why do you think that goal is important? Why nature? Because wicca is a nature-based religion. Because the Earth and Sun are what sustain us, and we learn important lessons from nature.

And what sustains them? What set them into motion and designed the laws that govern them? Duh!!! Rude much?

The answer definitely says "look within". In fact the Charge of the Goddess says "if that which you seek, you find not first within yourself, you will never find it without". So here is the real differences between your faith system and the three major religions. First let me say that I have a real hard time understanding why people who actually see nature work, how beautuful it is to watch it, how so interdependent it is, can't see it has gift from the Divine. There is so much intelligence in it and the way it works. I can understand it if one learned it from a textbook book alone, but not from observing it for even a few months. Secondly I don't understand how people can not see God's hand in it's creation and distinguish the two as separate entities. I am convinced that a major contributing factor to this problem is concentrated living systems, normally called cities. I base that thinking on history. When people lived farther apart they were dependent upon the land and and learned to respect it more than when they started to get closer to others in masses. In fact my conclusion is more evils come from mass influences rather than individual families living off the land. Getting back to your "looking within theory", I really wholeheartly think your Goddess is wrong. There is nothing within yourself that can lead you into "righteous living". I think that your statements prove it. Keep in mind that it's not your thinking alone because others think the same way. So I'm not just attaching you. Consider the conclusion you came to regarding your sister in law. You're an advocate of premarital sex and some of your pagan sisters feel sex outside of marriage is ok. If everyone believed that sex was a special gift from the Divine, and it was meant to be soley for H&W, would we have the related diseases, the illegitmate children, and the broken homes? If you were taught that the greatest gift you could give to your mate was your purity,would we have this sexual mess we have today. Just honestly compare the two trains of thought, and tell me where are the benefits of those who look within their egotistical self, and come to a conclusion that will benefit the society as a whole. Take it to a more wider perspective, what person has looked within and come to any conclusion that will benefit nature, themselves or it's society, without negative consequences. I think the looking within for the answers is an self-centered mindset.

Just honestly compare the two trains of thought, and tell me where are the benefits of those who look within their egotistical self, and come to a conclusion that will benefit the society as a whole. Take it to a more wider perspective, what person has looked within and come to any conclusion that will benefit nature, themselves or it's society, without negative consequences. I think the looking within for the answers is an self-centered mindset. ------------------- G-man, imo "looking within" is not necessarily selfish or misguided, and professing faith in God does not always lead to "righteous living". I think some religious folks are abominably selfish and unjust. I fully appreciate love of neighbor, but belief in God or a particular religion is not required to practice that. Some non-believers dedicate themselves to social justice, and the inherent value of all living beings. That is good for society, nature, and themselves.

and professing faith in God does not always lead to "righteous living". ............. You are correct but if the profession of faith is real,(born again), then we are made righteous before God. The Christian faith basically is suppose to help believers to become what we are. Do all believers seek to "grow in the nurture and admonition of the Lord", unfortunately no. "Some non-believers dedicate themselves to social justice, and the inherent value of all living beings. That is good for society, nature, and themselves." ..... I can somewhat buy that, but in the bigger picture,it is of no value before God for the individual and their eternal destiny. Works is a result of faith, not done in hopes of obtaining salvation.

if the profession of faith is real,(born again), then we are made righteous before God. The Christian faith basically is suppose to help believers to become what we are. Do all believers seek to "grow in the nurture and admonition of the Lord", unfortunately no. -------------------- How do you know what the "nurture and admonition of the Lord" is? It varies among beliefs, right? -------------------- "Some non-believers dedicate themselves to social justice, and the inherent value of all living beings. That is good for society, nature, and themselves." ---- I can somewhat buy that, but in the bigger picture,it is of no value before God for the individual and their eternal destiny. Works is a result of faith, not done in hopes of obtaining salvation. -------------------- If I were a believer, I think God would certainly value social justice, as it's a fulfillment of love of neighbor. If Christian works are not done for eternal salvation, I don't see a difference in the works of non-believers. Do you think God would save a believer who caused suffering and injustice?

"How do you know what the "nurture and admonition of the Lord" is? It varies among beliefs, right?".......... Put simply I think it's basically to be like Jesus as much as humanly possible. We are exhorted to love what he loves and hate what God hates. Probably the clearest and most concise teaching of this is the Sermon on the Mount. If we understand the Beatitudes to be a growth chart, we then can measure ourselves to some degree. A true imitator will act like just Jesus, constantly studying The word and always in the mindset of prayer. Are we doing a good job. No. I googled imitators of Christ and found this article that helps explain why our belief system is what itshould be. I am sure I'll get a few amen's after you and some of the others have read it. http://www.availablelightonline.com/ii.html If I were a believer, I think God would certainly value social justice, as it's a fulfillment of love of neighbor......... Social justice is a rather broad term and so I am not sure what particular aspect you might be referring to. It seems that much social injustice is not the result of the Church but more a problem created by governments. One of the greatest atrocites commited by the Churches is only focusing on the spiritual side and not dealing with the physical side. It seems to have been more of a problem with us fundies. I am happy to see that the trend has shifted some with the many social outreach programs that come about to meet the total needs of the community. The book of Romans written to a church within the heart of the Roman Empire never once said anything about taking on the government, or it's laws. In fact it emphatically told to the to respect the government even if it ain't what we as believers think it ought to be. S

Put simply I think it's basically to be like Jesus as much as humanly possible --------- Yes, that's fine for Christians, and one need not be Christian (or even believe in God) to appreciate Christ. What I'm saying is that Christianity is not the only path toward morality/love of neighbor. ---------- Social justice is a rather broad term and so I am not sure what particular aspect you might be referring to....The book of Romans written to a church within the heart of the Roman Empire never once said anything about taking on the government, or it's laws. In fact it emphatically told to the to respect the government even if it ain't what we as believers think it ought to be. ---------- I mean all aspects of social justice that can be achieved through non-violent means. I'm not surprised the book of Romans didn't take on the government, since that was a sure way to get yourself killed.

First let me say that I have a real hard time understanding why people who actually see nature work, how beautuful it is to watch it, how so interdependent it is, can't see it has gift from the Divine. There is so much intelligence in it and the way it works. Excuse me, but where did I say I didn't? Of course it is. That doesn't mean I don't believe that it could have evolved, that it's not just some stone the divine threw into a cosmic pond to see what shape the ripples took. Getting back to your "looking within theory", I really wholeheartly think your Goddess is wrong. There is nothing within yourself that can lead you into "righteous living". Do you think you could find God outside if He weren't within you as well? It's like the old adage of "if you don't like yourself no one will like you". I think that your statements prove it. Keep in mind that it's not your thinking alone because others think the same way. So I'm not just attaching you. What statements "prove it"? And BTW it doesn't matter how many others think as I do, you're still attacking the way I think, and therefore me. If everyone believed that sex was a special gift from the Divine, and it was meant to be soley for H&W, would we have the related diseases, the illegitmate children, and the broken homes? The broken homes, oh yeah, we'd still have those. If you were taught that the greatest gift you could give to your mate was your purity,would we have this sexual mess we have today. If I'd believed that I would have not have experienced a lot of the joy and love I have in my life. My "sisters" and friends who practice polyamory would not have all the love they have in their lives. Sorry, I have no "sexual mess". The ones I know who do are the ones who were taught the beliefs you espoused, but couldn't stick to them. I think the looking within for the answers is an self-centered mindset. Okay, let me explain this yet again. When you "look inside" it's not the you that you are searching for. It is the divine within you, the "higher" self. If you don't believe the divine is within you, if you believe you are a sinful, flawed being, no, you won't find it. If you believe that there is a part of you that is divine, then you can link to it and draw on it. Stop measuring my faith with your yardstick.

And a couple more points... Secondly I don't understand how people can not see God's hand in it's creation and distinguish the two as separate entities. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here... I am convinced that a major contributing factor to this problem is concentrated living systems, normally called cities. I base that thinking on history. When people lived farther apart they were dependent upon the land and and learned to respect it more than when they started to get closer to others in masses. To some degree that is the sort of awareness that Wicca and nature-based spirituality is trying to spread. That even if you don't live directly off the land, you still are eating grain from plants and meat from animals. We try to maintain that connection even tho' it isn't a part of our daily lives. Oh, and stop measuring my faith with your yardstick.

Oh, yeah, and this point too... You're an advocate of premarital sex and some of your pagan sisters feel sex outside of marriage is ok. I am an advocate of making your own choices. To someone raised as a Christian, abstinence before marriage may be the right choice and more power to them! Every path has pros and cons attached. I don't tell anyone what they should do, other than they should do what they want to and be wary of the possible consequences, doing what is necessary to avoid bad ones.