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    • Topic: 
    • Two See and Other Christians
  • From: rmbrown0926
  •   To: AinsleySt
  • 117 of 174
  • 9/26/11

Third, hell is a concept? of the Old? Testament and the ancient Greeks,? not an invention of the Catholic Church.

 

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The Old Testament speaks of "sheol" which simply means "grave."

 

The Greek word translated "hell" in the New Testament is actually "Hades" which is a mythological abode of the dead.

 

Sinners and nonbelievers will face God's judgment and correction, not eternal torture and little devils with pitchforks.

  • From: rmbrown0926
  •   To: AinsleySt
  • 118 of 174
  • 9/26/11

First, the earliest Christians were Jews.  Second, ancient Jews persecuted Christians.

 

**************

 

True, but it makes no sense to say that ancient Jews created anti-Semitism.  We have the early Catholic Church fathers to thank for that.

 

The most well-known promoters of Jew-hating and blaming Christ's crucifixion on Jews were Eusebius, Cyril, Chysostom, Augustine, Origen, Justin, and Jerome. 

 

And Crusaders (who were also acting on behalf of the Catholic Church) set out to plunder, rape and murder as many Jews and Jewesses as they could find.  They were told ahead of time that this was totally acceptable to God and that anyone who joined this unholy cause would not only have their sins forgiven, but should consider any debt they owed to Jews to be cancelled too.

 

  • From: lizsmom09
  •   To: rmbrown0926
  • 119 of 174
  • 9/26/11
You are so far out of line.
  • From: rmbrown0926
  •   To: AinsleySt
  • 120 of 174
  • 9/26/11

Thousands of Catholic clergy were killed by the Nazis, especially in Poland where the Nazis waged war against the Catholic Church and an estimated 3000 (18%)? of the Polish? clergy was murdered, of these, 1,992 died in concentration camps,

 

***************

 

It may be that the tide turned against the Catholic Church, but at least in the early part of the war, it was very vocal in its support of Hitler.  In 1933, HItler signed the Concordant of Collaboration, guaranteeing the rights of the Catholic Church in Nazi Germany.

 

"I am only continuing the work of the Catholic Church, to isolate the Jews and fight their influence."

Adolph Hitler, Concordant of Collaboration signing, July 20, 1933

Message 8726.121 was deleted
  • From: Nelbrewster
  •   To: jdaddad
  • 122 of 174
  • 9/26/11
Beyond belief!
  • From: Two See
  •   To: Nelbrewster
  • 123 of 174
  • 9/26/11
Yeah, like how could Hitler think these things,
  • From: AinsleySt
  •   To: rmbrown0926
  • 124 of 174
  • 9/27/11

Sinners and nonbelievers will face God's judgment and correction, not eternal torture and little devils with pitchforks.

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According to the New Testament, when Christ spoke of hell, he referred to a place where children were sacrificed.   Devils and pitchforks are conceived by artists, not the Catholic Church, and Dante was not a  priest.    Catholic theologians differ on the concepts of heaven and hell.  Some say they are actual places, and others say they are states of being.   I haven't a clue, and neither do you  :-)

  • From: AinsleySt
  •   To: rmbrown0926
  • 125 of 174
  • 9/27/11

It may be that the tide turned against the Catholic Church, but at least in the early part of the war, it was very vocal in its support of Hitler.  In 1933, HItler signed the Concordant of Collaboration, guaranteeing the rights of the Catholic Church in Nazi Germany.  

------------

You really should get your facts straight before you make such accusations.   The Concordat was Hitler's idea.  I think the Church co-operated in an attempt to protect its clergy and faithful, its schools and churches but it did not agree with Nazism.   Eleven years before that in 1922, Pope Pius Xl  emphasized that Christian charity extends to ALL without distinction of race. 

 

In 1928, Pope Pius Xl condemned anti-semitism.  In 1937, he wrote "Mit brenneder Sorge" in 1937, condeming Nazism.     In 1938, he commissioned his fourth encyclical denouncing racism and the persecution of Jews, but he died before it was released.  As the following article explains, his successor,  Pope Pius Xll,  was shy, reserved and gentle, avoiding partisanship and shunning public condemnations.  He lacked the fighting spirit of his predecessor.   See: "Pope Pius Xl's "encyclical" Humani Generi Unitas against racism and anti-Semitism and the "silence" of Pope Pius Xll" by Frank J. Coppa: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-53869109.html     But a Jewish study found that Pope Pius Xll was responsible for saving between 700,000 and 860,000 Jews: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII  

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  "I am only continuing the work of the Catholic Church, to isolate the Jews and fight their influence."

-----------

So you believe Hitler when it suits you?

  • From: AinsleySt
  •   To: rmbrown0926
  • 126 of 174
  • 9/27/11

[ First, the earliest Christians were Jews.  Second, ancient Jews persecuted Christians.]

**************

True, but it makes no sense to say that ancient Jews created anti-Semitism.  We have the early Catholic Church fathers to thank for that.   

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I didn't say Jews created anti-Semitism, but neither do I expect early Christians to befriend those who persecuted them, neither Jews or Romans.   Centuries later, when the Church was made the state religion of the Roman Empire, an effort was made to excuse Rome for crucifying Christ.  

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And Crusaders (who were also acting on behalf of the Catholic Church) set out to plunder, rape and murder as many Jews and Jewesses as they could find.  They were told ahead of time that this was totally acceptable to God and that anyone who joined this unholy cause would not only have their sins forgiven, but should consider any debt they owed to Jews to be cancelled too.

------------

What are you talking about?  The Crusades were fought against Muslims.

  • From: AinsleySt
  •   To: lizsmom09
  • 127 of 174
  • 9/27/11
You are so far out of line.   ---------   And so blatantly incorrect too :-D
  • From: rmbrown0926
  •   To: AinsleySt
  • 128 of 174
  • 9/27/11

I haven't a clue, and neither do you  :-)

 

********************

 

All the "clues" we need are in the Bible.  If we reject that, then we truly are clueless.

 

But it must be a Bible that is as free of mistranslations as possible.  Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna are words that were taken for granted to mean "Hell" and yet meant no such thing.

  • From: rmbrown0926
  •   To: AinsleySt
  • 129 of 174
  • 9/27/11
 "I am only continuing the work of the Catholic Church, to isolate the Jews and fight their influence."

-----------

So you believe Hitler when it suits you?

 

*****************

 

I believe Hitler said these things to gain credence with the Christians of his day, many of whom were Catholics.  He also was an admirer of Martin Luther, the Catholic monk who started the Protestant Reformation.

 

Luther was a great man, who accomplished a lot, but he apparently never shook off the rabid anti-Semitism he had been raised with.  Truly a pity.

  • From: lizsmom09
  •   To: AinsleySt
  • 130 of 174
  • 9/27/11

You are so far out of line. --------- And so blatantly incorrect too :-D

 

Thank you.  Because I just cannot respond anymore to her posts.

  • From: rmbrown0926
  •   To: AinsleySt
  • 131 of 174
  • 9/27/11

What are you talking about?  The Crusades were fought against Muslims.

 

********************

 

True, but these men were out to attack any Jews they happened to come across.  During the First Crusade, the crusading armies left a trail of Jewish blood across Europe.  In three months, 12,000 Jews were slaughtered in Germany alone.

 

There is an old Jewish cemetary in the German city of Worms.  There are about 800 graves there dating from May of 1096 when Jews were killed by crusaders on their way to the Holy Land.

  • From: rmbrown0926
  •   To: AinsleySt
  • 132 of 174
  • 9/27/11

Centuries later, when the Church was made the state religion of the Roman Empire, an effort was made to excuse Rome for crucifying Christ.  

 

****************

 

It was probably around this time that anti-Semitism became an integral part of Roman Catholic thought and attitude.  Think about the fact that Jesus was killed by crucifixion on a cross.  Had the Jews executed Him, it would have been by stoning.

 

And the Bible tells us that Jesus was arrested quietly, so as not to incite a riot among him many Jewish admirers. 

 

The real culprits were Rome and a handful of hateful Pharisees.  Judas, who betrayed Jesus, was not an ethnic Jew.

  • From: Nelbrewster
  •   To: rmbrown0926
  • 133 of 174
  • 9/27/11
All the "clues" we need are in the Bible.  If we reject that, then we truly are clueless.
---------------
 this is wrong. First of all, they are not clues in the Bible, they are different genres so some of it is literal while much of it is not. Without accurate historical background, an understanding of how people used the language when the works were written and even the knowledge of what mathematical systems were used, we cannot accurately interpret the Bible.
Message 8726.134 was deleted
  • From: Two See
  •   To: rmbrown0926
  • 135 of 174
  • 9/27/11

Hitler made Catholics look bad.  Pope Pius XII should have denounced the Concordat, at least after the Axis started losing.  Mussolini made Catholics look bad, except for one little known fact....

 

Of all the Nazi-occupied countries, Italy had one of the the lowest % of their Jewish population killed (Possibly, as low as10%).  Musosolini did not make Jews were the yellow star.  More importantly, Mussolini REFUSED to send the Jews to the German-run concentration camps when Hitler demanded it in 1940. http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewsh9.htm  Instead, Mussolini sent them to an Italian concentration camp in Cosenza, Calabria. (Part of my odd family tree is from there.)  While it wasn't a picnic, it wasn't a death camp.  http://info.jpost.com/C002/Info/Travel/####/haven.html

 

Three things increased the survival rate: 1. The location in Calabria ensured it would be liberated by Allies after Sicily. 2. Prior to Italy's surrender to the Allies & the Nazi invasion of Italy in 1943, Mussolini had a program whereby Jews in the Calabria camp were dispersed to Italian families as workers.  This scattered them throughout the country. http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Calabria,  3. Ordinary Italians, including soldiers in the Italian Army, ignored anti-Semitic laws. http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewsh9.htm

 

When the Naz's invaded Italy , the SS sent Jewish Italians to Auschwitz- Birkenau, including a Jewish neighborhood in Rome which lived at the foot of Vatican hill. The slaughter of Jewish Italians was during the Nazi occupation from October 1943 to the end of the war in 1944.  If you need a good cry, try Benigni's movie "La vita è bella."   We cried through it.

 



  • From: Two See
  •   To: All
  • 136 of 174
  • 9/27/11
Also, when you combine the words Jewish with Italian, the ABC autochecker censors the sxxt.  Funny.
 
 
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