Hello all.  I myself am a theist, in particular a Christian, who really bears no ill will towards atheists.  I am pretty convinced that my beliefs are rationally held, not that those who hold different beliefs are irrational, and would be open to discussing the rationality of various religious topics (ie. belief in the existence of a god or God, etc).  If anyone is up for discussing these issues in a rational and respectful manner, please feel free to post here.  I can't really control what people post, but I won't be going on emotional rants and would like the same courtesy extended to each side of the issues.  Cheers.

Hi dg.
As a guy who has been to many churches over the years, I find organized religion lacking. Church is like the sandbox of spirituality, it never seems to get to the next level, true understanding of who we are. The belief systems of most  religions seems to be based more on rout, preyer beads,  hail Mary's and hosannas and so on.

Most people who call themselves Christians, Jews or Muslims I don't believe have ever read their particular holy book. They seem to be hand feed only the passages that suits their needs and nothing more. No one religion has a lock on morality or truth, much can be learned from many schools of thought.

Welcome to the fray.

As background, I am a former Christian who no longer finds it rational.

I think that beginning of any discussion must begin with your rational reason for believing in the Christian god since you have the burden of proof.  Maybe you could start with telling us your rational reasons for (1) believing that a god exists and (2) that this god happens to be the Chrstian god.  It is of necessity a two part problem.  Let me give a few examples.

Let's say you want to make the argument from design / complexity / creation.  The first step would be to show us evidence of design in nature and to show that it could not have come about by natural means.  In other words, show us why a god is necessary; where does current theory posit something impossible.  You would then need to show us that there was one designer only and why that designer must be the Christian god and not some other god or even advanced aliens.

Perhaps you would like to argue from your own experiences with your god.  We would need to be convinced that you were really interacting with a god in some tangible way.  We then would need to know why we should accept your experiences, and by extention those of other Christians, and why we should discount very similar experiences of those of other faiths with their gods.

I think that you get the idea.  We need to know why we should accept that any gods exist at all and specifically why we can rationally think that your particular god is the one and only.  I would expect that rational reasons would exclude discussions based on emotion or faith or circular appeals to one particular holy book and other such logic.

I don't think it's possible to argue that belief in god(s) or lack of belief in god(s) are inherently irrational positions.  That said, I think that the probabilty of the existence of god(s) is remote and if they do exist it is even less likely that they would interact with the universe.

Opps.  I did click the wrong place.  Too much of a hurry I guess.

 

Yes, it was meant for theOP.

I think it's fair to say that there's a piont in theism where rationality ceases to exist. That doesn't mean that it's wrong to beleive in a God. Whatever makes you happy, I say. But beyond a point only faith makes any sense in the beleif of God and its accompanying bible stories. Consider these bible contradictions:

 

God good to all, or just a few?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

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War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

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Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

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Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:

MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

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Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

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Which first--beasts or man?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

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The number of beasts in the ark

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

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How many stalls and horsemen?

KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

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Is it folly to be wise or not?

PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

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Human vs. ghostly impregnation

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

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The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Several interesting points.  I shall try my best to address them.  You stated, "Church is like the sandbox of spirituality, it never seems to get to the next level, true understanding of who we are."  What do you mean by this, in particular the understanding of who we are? 

"The belief systems of most  religions seems to be based more on rout, preyer beads,  hail Mary's and hosannas and so on."  Well, I'm not sure I would agree with that.  I've never met anyone who believed that, say, Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, because he or she had said a few Hail Mary's or shouted a couple of Hosannas.  That seems to be putting the cart before the horse.  Rather, it seems that one says a Hail Mary or Hosanna because one believes something like like what's stated above.  The action is more of a response to the belief, rather than the belief's cause.

"Most people who call themselves Christians, Jews or Muslims I don't believe have ever read their particular holy book."  I can't speak for the other two religions, only my own, and really only a small sub-section of it at that.  Sadly, I think this is probably true, though I fail to see the immediate relevance of this on the rationality of the beliefs held.

"They seem to be hand feed only the passages that suits their needs and nothing more."  True in some cases, I'm sure, but I think that this might be a bit of a hasty generalization.

"No one religion has a lock on morality or truth, much can be learned from many schools of thought."  Certainly it would be arrogant for any person to think that he or she had a complete grasp of truth; we're finite beings.  I can't, philosophically speaking, accept the first part of this statement, however.  As a Realist, I adhere to the notion that there is a real "way things are" and that anything which contradicts this must not be true.  Thus, I'm forced to conclude that either some religious worldview is true (if not, perhaps a naturalistic worldview) and that if one is, then the others must be false since they assert incompatible things.  This doesn't mean that my own tradition is the correct one.  I may very well be wrong and the Hindu  could be right.  I don't think that's the case, but I'm not sure I could say that I believe in the Christian worldview if I didn't.

I am an atheist.  While I do not believe in God, I respect the rights of those who do. I have no problem with people who pray privately or publicly, as the Vast majority of the desires voiced in their prayers are usually positive and good. I do get tired of religious fanatics who force their beliefs on others, destroying anyone who does not share those beliefs. It makes me sad that so many people seem to need the fear of Hell or the bribery of Heaven to act with moral integrity. I wish that people would search for, learn from, or live by the words of wisdom (found in both fact and fiction) given by so many past and present authors, thus leaving a positive legacy for future generations.  I have read the Bible, Book of Mormon, Qu'ran , and Torah. I believe I am a better person from the words of wisdom I have found in these, as well as many other books and writings. I  do not need to, nor choose to, act on the violence that is often glorified in the name of God, as well as is found in many other fictitious books and games.  We need to like who we see when we look in the mirror. I'm all for anything that helps us see strong, moral, productive, conscientious people.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
Regarding the sandbox issue and why I make the point that most Christians are ignorant of their own religion.
 Many houses of worship today seem more concerned with filling pews and political correctness than in thoughtful dialogue and deeper understanding.

The abortion issue is a good case in point. No where in the Bible does it address abortion directly. There are some ambiguous references, but there are far more direct statements such as ripping out the fruit of this or that womb , killing children etc. Even the Ten Commandments when it says thou shall not kill/murder,  was only an admonition against killing "your own kind"  Jew on Jew and so on, it was perfectly acceptable to slaughter the next village, plunder, rape, covert and what have you if they were "'heathens".

So churches instead of thoughtfully addressing these issues,  condemn  abortion as some sacrosanct  Biblical law, in fact just the opposite is the case. The same can be said of slavery. Christians rant and rave about homosexuality, but never really examine the passages on  incest in the bible or a litany of other in consistencies.

Many in todays clergy decry moral relevancy, and the lack of absoluteness, yet there are literally dozens of places in the good book that show where  this behavior is either tolerated or rewarded by God. This is not to critize the Bible, but I do condemn those who twist its words for their own agenda.

I am no fan of abortion,  and you can certainly  claim moral high ground condemning it , but it is lubricious to claim the Bible as founding  document for that argument.

Religious works such as the Bible can teach us much, but lets be honest about the contents and not fabricate ideas  out of whole clothe.

     I don't consider the Bible a list of do's and don'ts. Lots of people want to be able to act certain ways, and then if it doesn't specifically say "thow shall not", then it must be ok. I am not one of those that say the Bible says not to have an abortion. Jesus taught that the actual Spirit of the Holy God can and will reside in us if we will allow him to. Someone without the Holy Spirit residing in them may not ever realize that killing the unborn is against God. We are a self centered people! It is very possible that this specific procedure was not spoken of because even the most wicked people of that day didn't comonly consider such things. But most people miss the obvious. If you do not want a baby, do not make one. 

Human vrs Ghostly impregnation?

Mary was a decendant of David as well. Jesus was a fruit of Mary's loins

The Lord is good to all or just a few?

Mathew 5:45 He causes the rain to fall on the good and the evil.(not word for word)

He is also just to punish the wicked if they choose to remain wicked.

God doesn't shape his goodness or love from what we percieve it should be. 

War or peace?

1st your quotes are from two different time frames and situations entirely. In His justice He will defeat the unjust

He extends the oppurtunity for peace to all that repent.

Who was at the tomb?

none of these scriptures contradict. some have more information. There may have been others there that these three accounts did not specify.

i will come back to  who's Joseph father?

Is Jesus lesser than, or equal.

When Jesus says I and my father are one, He is not saying equal here. He is refering to a spiritual union. In another scripture Jesus proclaimes we can be one with him, not equal.